1
00:00:07,030 --> 00:00:03,590
do you want to have fun with me later

2
00:00:10,470 --> 00:00:07,040
courtney holmes i am mildly surprised

3
00:00:12,950 --> 00:00:10,480
but offer accepted midnight basement sub

4
00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:12,960
level c

5
00:00:17,590 --> 00:00:15,040
what's going on i would like you to stop

6
00:00:20,230 --> 00:00:17,600
my heart that's a clip from the

7
00:00:22,150 --> 00:00:20,240
movie flatliners it's actually a remake

8
00:00:23,269 --> 00:00:22,160
of the 90s movie they remade it again in

9
00:00:25,429 --> 00:00:23,279
2017

10
00:00:27,349 --> 00:00:25,439
which you would think with all the

11
00:00:28,230 --> 00:00:27,359
enormous amount of research that's been

12
00:00:30,790 --> 00:00:28,240
done

13
00:00:31,830 --> 00:00:30,800
on near-death experience much of it

14
00:00:35,510 --> 00:00:31,840
influenced or

15
00:00:36,150 --> 00:00:35,520
done by today's amazing guest dr bruce

16
00:00:39,430 --> 00:00:36,160
grayson

17
00:00:42,630 --> 00:00:39,440
well you'd think with all that science

18
00:00:45,750 --> 00:00:42,640
some of it would make it into this movie

19
00:00:46,790 --> 00:00:45,760
but of course it doesn't and again it's

20
00:00:49,110 --> 00:00:46,800
a movie

21
00:00:50,709 --> 00:00:49,120
so they're trying to be entertaining i

22
00:00:51,189 --> 00:00:50,719
guess that's what they're trying to be

23
00:00:52,869 --> 00:00:51,199
or

24
00:00:54,229 --> 00:00:52,879
maybe they're trying to influence

25
00:00:56,389 --> 00:00:54,239
culture a little bit

26
00:00:58,069 --> 00:00:56,399
i don't know you know i'm hesitant i

27
00:00:58,630 --> 00:00:58,079
have this great interview coming up and

28
00:01:02,069 --> 00:00:58,640
this guy

29
00:01:03,029 --> 00:01:02,079
is fantastic bruce grayson he is such an

30
00:01:04,390 --> 00:01:03,039
enormous such an

31
00:01:07,190 --> 00:01:04,400
important figure in near-death

32
00:01:09,670 --> 00:01:07,200
experience research science

33
00:01:10,230 --> 00:01:09,680
but at the same time i can't help but

34
00:01:11,910 --> 00:01:10,240
feel

35
00:01:15,030 --> 00:01:11,920
and i really hammered on this in this

36
00:01:17,749 --> 00:01:15,040
interview that he's a little bit

37
00:01:19,109 --> 00:01:17,759
what would you call it when a group of

38
00:01:22,310 --> 00:01:19,119
people

39
00:01:23,590 --> 00:01:22,320
are dishonest i mean provably dishonest

40
00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:23,600
over and over again

41
00:01:28,230 --> 00:01:26,880
what do you call them i know what i call

42
00:01:30,149 --> 00:01:28,240
him

43
00:01:31,749 --> 00:01:30,159
but it turns out it's not the same as

44
00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:31,759
what today's guest

45
00:01:36,710 --> 00:01:35,040
dr bruce grayson calls him here's a clip

46
00:01:40,230 --> 00:01:36,720
from the interview

47
00:01:43,190 --> 00:01:40,240
i just failed to believe that dr watt

48
00:01:44,469 --> 00:01:43,200
is sitting there doing any kind of real

49
00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:44,479
research

50
00:01:48,469 --> 00:01:47,680
that would compel her to respond to your

51
00:01:50,389 --> 00:01:48,479
paper

52
00:01:51,510 --> 00:01:50,399
so her response going through all the

53
00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:51,520
trouble and then

54
00:01:54,630 --> 00:01:52,960
having the right connections to

55
00:01:56,230 --> 00:01:54,640
immediately zipping it through a

56
00:01:58,950 --> 00:01:56,240
peer-review process

57
00:01:59,830 --> 00:01:58,960
it doesn't seem genuine doctors and

58
00:02:02,630 --> 00:01:59,840
scientists

59
00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:02,640
are just like everybody else i think the

60
00:02:06,469 --> 00:02:05,200
vast majority of these quote debunkers

61
00:02:08,229 --> 00:02:06,479
are people who really believe what

62
00:02:10,389 --> 00:02:08,239
they're saying who are so

63
00:02:11,670 --> 00:02:10,399
locked into their prejudice that they

64
00:02:13,430 --> 00:02:11,680
can't accept

65
00:02:15,430 --> 00:02:13,440
the reality of anything else so i think

66
00:02:18,390 --> 00:02:15,440
most of these people are acting out of

67
00:02:20,150 --> 00:02:18,400
honesty with their own their own beliefs

68
00:02:22,550 --> 00:02:20,160
welcome to skeptico where we explore

69
00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:22,560
controversial science and spirituality

70
00:02:26,070 --> 00:02:25,040
with leading researchers thinkers and

71
00:02:29,350 --> 00:02:26,080
their critics

72
00:02:33,030 --> 00:02:29,360
i'm your host alex sacaris and today

73
00:02:35,509 --> 00:02:33,040
today we got a biggie we have dr bruce

74
00:02:38,070 --> 00:02:35,519
grayson here he has a new book titled

75
00:02:39,830 --> 00:02:38,080
after and we'll get into that in a

76
00:02:41,270 --> 00:02:39,840
minute but i just want to pick up on the

77
00:02:43,190 --> 00:02:41,280
after thing

78
00:02:44,309 --> 00:02:43,200
because i really really love the title

79
00:02:46,229 --> 00:02:44,319
of that

80
00:02:47,910 --> 00:02:46,239
i i just think when you take a big step

81
00:02:49,270 --> 00:02:47,920
back you know we've talked about this on

82
00:02:52,070 --> 00:02:49,280
the show

83
00:02:52,550 --> 00:02:52,080
but if you look at not just our culture

84
00:02:54,309 --> 00:02:52,560
but

85
00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:54,319
every culture we know of throughout

86
00:02:59,910 --> 00:02:57,120
history there has been this

87
00:03:00,710 --> 00:02:59,920
uh fascination doesn't really capture it

88
00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:00,720
but this

89
00:03:07,110 --> 00:03:04,480
deep knowing that the afterlife

90
00:03:08,390 --> 00:03:07,120
is key to not only understanding a

91
00:03:14,309 --> 00:03:08,400
deeper part of

92
00:03:14,869 --> 00:03:14,319
what we need to be or maybe what we can

93
00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:14,879
be

94
00:03:21,750 --> 00:03:18,400
in this life so

95
00:03:24,869 --> 00:03:21,760
dr grayson's amazing work

96
00:03:26,070 --> 00:03:24,879
over his 40-year career as one of the

97
00:03:28,949 --> 00:03:26,080
truly

98
00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:28,959
pioneers and leading researchers in

99
00:03:32,789 --> 00:03:29,680
near-death

100
00:03:36,789 --> 00:03:32,799
experience science has been

101
00:03:40,550 --> 00:03:36,799
part of this really game-changing

102
00:03:44,149 --> 00:03:40,560
science that has taken this deep

103
00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:44,159
fascination we have in the afterlife and

104
00:03:48,869 --> 00:03:46,640
applied science to it and kind of broken

105
00:03:52,309 --> 00:03:48,879
through in some ways that

106
00:03:55,110 --> 00:03:52,319
i think a lot of us i wasn't around

107
00:03:56,949 --> 00:03:55,120
i could say way back when he started but

108
00:03:58,390 --> 00:03:56,959
even for the last 20 years while i've

109
00:03:59,830 --> 00:03:58,400
been aware of it

110
00:04:01,910 --> 00:03:59,840
you know i don't think we could have

111
00:04:03,030 --> 00:04:01,920
even imagined that the kind of cultural

112
00:04:04,789 --> 00:04:03,040
change

113
00:04:06,070 --> 00:04:04,799
that has come about around near-death

114
00:04:08,630 --> 00:04:06,080
experience

115
00:04:10,470 --> 00:04:08,640
would have occurred or or maybe maybe we

116
00:04:12,229 --> 00:04:10,480
did expect it maybe even assumed

117
00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:12,239
that it would happen sooner i don't know

118
00:04:15,910 --> 00:04:14,080
but these are all things

119
00:04:17,590 --> 00:04:15,920
that we're going to talk about there's

120
00:04:21,110 --> 00:04:17,600
no one more central to

121
00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:21,120
this super important science than dr

122
00:04:23,830 --> 00:04:22,800
bruce grayson from the university of

123
00:04:25,749 --> 00:04:23,840
virginia

124
00:04:27,510 --> 00:04:25,759
and i'm just really really pleased that

125
00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:27,520
he's joined us here today

126
00:04:32,230 --> 00:04:30,560
uh bruce thank you for joining me

127
00:04:34,310 --> 00:04:32,240
ah my pleasure alex thank you for

128
00:04:36,230 --> 00:04:34,320
inviting me

129
00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:36,240
so bruce as i mentioned you have a

130
00:04:41,830 --> 00:04:38,160
fantastic new book out

131
00:04:44,150 --> 00:04:41,840
it's titled after a doctor explores what

132
00:04:47,270 --> 00:04:44,160
near-death experiences reveal

133
00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:47,280
about life and beyond

134
00:04:52,150 --> 00:04:50,320
fantastic book it's going to be just

135
00:04:53,830 --> 00:04:52,160
kind of one of those cornerstone

136
00:04:56,150 --> 00:04:53,840
books that anyone who's interested in

137
00:04:57,830 --> 00:04:56,160
this field is going to want to have

138
00:04:59,670 --> 00:04:57,840
but it really goes beyond that because

139
00:05:00,469 --> 00:04:59,680
you know we would expect this to be kind

140
00:05:03,749 --> 00:05:00,479
of a

141
00:05:05,670 --> 00:05:03,759
capstone of your career and all that

142
00:05:08,550 --> 00:05:05,680
and it has all that and it tells all

143
00:05:09,350 --> 00:05:08,560
these great stories of the experience

144
00:05:12,390 --> 00:05:09,360
you've gone through

145
00:05:14,230 --> 00:05:12,400
but it also has a lot of up-to-date

146
00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:14,240
findings and research because you

147
00:05:18,469 --> 00:05:15,520
continually be so

148
00:05:19,270 --> 00:05:18,479
actively involved in this field so i

149
00:05:24,230 --> 00:05:19,280
thought it was

150
00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:24,240
been the reception so far on the book

151
00:05:27,670 --> 00:05:25,840
well i've been very pleased i've gotten

152
00:05:28,790 --> 00:05:27,680
mostly positive reception

153
00:05:30,790 --> 00:05:28,800
i've heard from a lot of people i

154
00:05:33,110 --> 00:05:30,800
haven't heard from in decades uh

155
00:05:34,150 --> 00:05:33,120
that they're delighted to read it so i'm

156
00:05:36,150 --> 00:05:34,160
very happy with the way it's been

157
00:05:39,189 --> 00:05:36,160
received so far

158
00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:39,199
great so i i know you've

159
00:05:43,430 --> 00:05:42,160
told this story several times and you

160
00:05:45,189 --> 00:05:43,440
tell it in the book

161
00:05:46,469 --> 00:05:45,199
and i've also heard interviews where you

162
00:05:49,430 --> 00:05:46,479
talk about your first

163
00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:49,440
encounter with a near-death experience

164
00:05:52,070 --> 00:05:51,280
but it really is a terrific story would

165
00:05:54,710 --> 00:05:52,080
you mind sharing

166
00:05:56,550 --> 00:05:54,720
that with folks sure you know it it kind

167
00:05:57,430 --> 00:05:56,560
of took me by surprise because i've been

168
00:05:59,350 --> 00:05:57,440
raised

169
00:06:01,110 --> 00:05:59,360
in a scientific household where we just

170
00:06:02,629 --> 00:06:01,120
talked about the physical world

171
00:06:04,230 --> 00:06:02,639
there was just never any talk about

172
00:06:06,309 --> 00:06:04,240
anything non-physical any

173
00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:06,319
anything spiritual or religious that

174
00:06:09,189 --> 00:06:07,680
just never came up in our family there

175
00:06:11,110 --> 00:06:09,199
was no reason to

176
00:06:12,469 --> 00:06:11,120
uh we thought what was what you see is

177
00:06:13,670 --> 00:06:12,479
what you get uh

178
00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:13,680
if it couldn't be measured then we

179
00:06:17,430 --> 00:06:16,000
didn't worry about it and that means

180
00:06:18,629 --> 00:06:17,440
that when you die that's the end of

181
00:06:20,550 --> 00:06:18,639
everything and that was fine with me

182
00:06:22,150 --> 00:06:20,560
that was just the way it was

183
00:06:24,790 --> 00:06:22,160
and i went through college and medical

184
00:06:27,270 --> 00:06:24,800
school with that materialistic mindset

185
00:06:27,830 --> 00:06:27,280
i didn't think anything was missing and

186
00:06:29,670 --> 00:06:27,840
then

187
00:06:32,070 --> 00:06:29,680
shortly after i graduated from medical

188
00:06:34,790 --> 00:06:32,080
school in my first few weeks

189
00:06:36,469 --> 00:06:34,800
as a psychiatric trainee i was asked to

190
00:06:37,990 --> 00:06:36,479
see a patient in the emergency room who

191
00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:38,000
had overdosed

192
00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:40,000
well i went down to see her and she was

193
00:06:43,430 --> 00:06:41,680
quite unconscious i could not arouse her

194
00:06:45,029 --> 00:06:43,440
no matter what i did

195
00:06:46,550 --> 00:06:45,039
so i talked with her roommate in a

196
00:06:47,430 --> 00:06:46,560
different room about 50 yards down the

197
00:06:49,510 --> 00:06:47,440
hall

198
00:06:50,950 --> 00:06:49,520
to get information about what has been

199
00:06:52,550 --> 00:06:50,960
going on in the patient's life

200
00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:52,560
what my stressors she might have had

201
00:06:55,029 --> 00:06:53,680
what she might have taken for the

202
00:06:56,710 --> 00:06:55,039
overdose

203
00:06:57,909 --> 00:06:56,720
and i spent about 15 or 20 minutes

204
00:06:59,350 --> 00:06:57,919
talking to the roommate and then went

205
00:06:59,749 --> 00:06:59,360
back to see the patient and she was

206
00:07:02,469 --> 00:06:59,759
still

207
00:07:04,629 --> 00:07:02,479
out cold so she was going to be admitted

208
00:07:05,990 --> 00:07:04,639
to the intensive care unit overnight

209
00:07:08,390 --> 00:07:06,000
and i arranged to see her the following

210
00:07:10,629 --> 00:07:08,400
morning after she woke up

211
00:07:12,309 --> 00:07:10,639
when i went to see her the next day i

212
00:07:14,870 --> 00:07:12,319
introduced myself she was still

213
00:07:15,990 --> 00:07:14,880
very groggy barely awake at all i told

214
00:07:18,550 --> 00:07:16,000
her who i was and she

215
00:07:19,589 --> 00:07:18,560
said i know who you are i remember you

216
00:07:21,110 --> 00:07:19,599
from last night

217
00:07:23,749 --> 00:07:21,120
well that kind of caught me up short

218
00:07:25,670 --> 00:07:23,759
because i i thought she was out cold

219
00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:25,680
so i said to her i'm surprised of that i

220
00:07:28,870 --> 00:07:27,680
thought you were asleep when i saw you

221
00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:28,880
and then she opened her eyes and looked

222
00:07:34,150 --> 00:07:31,280
at me and said not in my room

223
00:07:34,870 --> 00:07:34,160
i saw you talking to my roommate well

224
00:07:36,230 --> 00:07:34,880
that

225
00:07:37,830 --> 00:07:36,240
made no sense to me i couldn't imagine

226
00:07:39,430 --> 00:07:37,840
what she was talking about that could

227
00:07:40,870 --> 00:07:39,440
only happen if she had left her body and

228
00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:40,880
moved with me down the hall to her

229
00:07:44,070 --> 00:07:42,080
roommate's

230
00:07:45,670 --> 00:07:44,080
room and as far as i could tell that

231
00:07:47,350 --> 00:07:45,680
made no sense at all

232
00:07:49,110 --> 00:07:47,360
as far as i knew i was my body how can

233
00:07:52,309 --> 00:07:49,120
you leave it

234
00:07:53,830 --> 00:07:52,319
uh so i kind of fumbled around and she

235
00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:53,840
picked up my confusion and then went to

236
00:07:56,629 --> 00:07:55,280
tom wanted to tell me

237
00:07:58,550 --> 00:07:56,639
about the conversation i had with a

238
00:07:59,270 --> 00:07:58,560
roommate where i was sitting where she

239
00:08:01,990 --> 00:07:59,280
was sitting

240
00:08:02,390 --> 00:08:02,000
what we were wearing uh the questions i

241
00:08:04,629 --> 00:08:02,400
asked

242
00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:04,639
the answers her roommate gave and she

243
00:08:09,749 --> 00:08:06,000
made no mistakes i

244
00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:09,759
i could not understand this

245
00:08:13,110 --> 00:08:11,520
however i couldn't deal with my

246
00:08:14,230 --> 00:08:13,120
confusion and my job was there to work

247
00:08:16,469 --> 00:08:14,240
with her

248
00:08:18,629 --> 00:08:16,479
so i focused on what was going on in her

249
00:08:21,110 --> 00:08:18,639
life and her suicidal thinking and

250
00:08:22,469 --> 00:08:21,120
tried to push my feelings uh out of my

251
00:08:24,070 --> 00:08:22,479
mind

252
00:08:25,510 --> 00:08:24,080
in the next several days as i got some

253
00:08:26,150 --> 00:08:25,520
distance from this i told myself this

254
00:08:28,309 --> 00:08:26,160
this

255
00:08:30,550 --> 00:08:28,319
could not have happened uh i must have

256
00:08:31,909 --> 00:08:30,560
misheard misinterpreted

257
00:08:33,350 --> 00:08:31,919
maybe they were playing a trick on me

258
00:08:34,389 --> 00:08:33,360
i'm a green intern they're trying to

259
00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:34,399
embarrass me

260
00:08:39,350 --> 00:08:36,880
it didn't didn't happen well it wasn't

261
00:08:40,870 --> 00:08:39,360
until several years later

262
00:08:42,630 --> 00:08:40,880
that raymond moody joined me at the

263
00:08:45,030 --> 00:08:42,640
university of virginia and he had just

264
00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:45,040
written a book in 1975 called life after

265
00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:45,760
life

266
00:08:48,949 --> 00:08:47,600
in which he gave us the name near death

267
00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:48,959
experiences

268
00:08:54,070 --> 00:08:52,000
and told us what they consist of

269
00:08:55,509 --> 00:08:54,080
and i read his book and talked with him

270
00:08:57,190 --> 00:08:55,519
about it

271
00:08:58,790 --> 00:08:57,200
and i realized for the first time that

272
00:08:59,269 --> 00:08:58,800
this story my patient had told me was

273
00:09:01,430 --> 00:08:59,279
not just

274
00:09:03,509 --> 00:09:01,440
a one-time story by one psychiatric

275
00:09:04,310 --> 00:09:03,519
patient it was part of a much larger

276
00:09:05,829 --> 00:09:04,320
phenomenon that

277
00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:05,839
millions of people all around the world

278
00:09:10,389 --> 00:09:07,360
were talking about

279
00:09:12,310 --> 00:09:10,399
i still couldn't understand it but

280
00:09:13,829 --> 00:09:12,320
to me as a scientist that means you need

281
00:09:15,829 --> 00:09:13,839
to go towards it

282
00:09:18,070 --> 00:09:15,839
you don't deny something that has

283
00:09:20,470 --> 00:09:18,080
happened you try to understand it

284
00:09:21,350 --> 00:09:20,480
and as a skeptic that means i need to

285
00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:21,360
challenge

286
00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:24,720
everything i thought i understood so i

287
00:09:28,389 --> 00:09:26,880
decided we need to go look at this and

288
00:09:31,110 --> 00:09:28,399
collect as many stories as we can

289
00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:31,120
and try to find the patterns and uh here

290
00:09:34,070 --> 00:09:32,640
i am 50 years later still trying to

291
00:09:36,389 --> 00:09:34,080
understand it

292
00:09:38,389 --> 00:09:36,399
yeah that's such an amazing story on so

293
00:09:40,590 --> 00:09:38,399
many levels because

294
00:09:41,910 --> 00:09:40,600
i love the way you say it so

295
00:09:44,710 --> 00:09:41,920
matter-of-factly

296
00:09:46,790 --> 00:09:44,720
as a scientist really no but as a

297
00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:46,800
scientist as well as a physician

298
00:09:50,310 --> 00:09:49,040
and i've heard this from other

299
00:09:52,550 --> 00:09:50,320
near-death experience

300
00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:52,560
researchers really the best ones it's

301
00:09:56,949 --> 00:09:53,760
almost like they were like

302
00:09:59,350 --> 00:09:56,959
well i knew what i had to do and i

303
00:10:00,949 --> 00:09:59,360
didn't think about the consequences that

304
00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:00,959
you know you encountered the

305
00:10:04,949 --> 00:10:03,200
consequences in your career in stumbling

306
00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:04,959
blocks but at the time you're like

307
00:10:08,150 --> 00:10:06,480
hey this is what i'm trained to do i

308
00:10:11,269 --> 00:10:08,160
have a new

309
00:10:12,790 --> 00:10:11,279
experience i need to follow it i was

310
00:10:16,389 --> 00:10:12,800
aware of the consequences i

311
00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:16,399
i knew that um like myself

312
00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:18,000
very few doctors had ever heard of this

313
00:10:21,190 --> 00:10:19,600
thing and and would think be very

314
00:10:24,310 --> 00:10:21,200
skeptical of it and

315
00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:24,320
weren't sure it existed uh but i thought

316
00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:25,040
well

317
00:10:28,069 --> 00:10:26,880
i need to be true to myself i know these

318
00:10:30,949 --> 00:10:28,079
things happen

319
00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:30,959
i saw one um and raymond's written this

320
00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:32,000
book about 150

321
00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:34,880
other cases so it's there and how can

322
00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:37,040
you have intellectual integrity and deny

323
00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:38,480
something that exists so

324
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:40,000
you need to look at it and try to

325
00:10:42,630 --> 00:10:42,000
understand it now i still went into this

326
00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:42,640
thinking

327
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:44,720
there's got to be some physiological

328
00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:46,560
explanation for this and that was my

329
00:10:48,949 --> 00:10:47,920
mindset for the first several years

330
00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:48,959
trying to figure out

331
00:10:53,509 --> 00:10:50,800
how does this happen how do we explain

332
00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:53,519
it i recently had uh

333
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:56,240
leslie kane on talking about her

334
00:11:00,550 --> 00:10:56,959
excellent

335
00:11:03,910 --> 00:11:00,560
new netflix series surviving death

336
00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:03,920
which you are featured quite prominently

337
00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:07,440
in the first episode do a fantastic job

338
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:08,480
you really come across

339
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:10,560
great but one of the things that kind of

340
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:12,079
struck me and i guess i should have

341
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,720
known this

342
00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:14,800
all along but i always think of you as

343
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:15,920
this

344
00:11:20,389 --> 00:11:19,120
nde researcher which you are but you're

345
00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:20,399
also a people helper

346
00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:22,880
i mean you got in no doubt you got into

347
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:24,880
psychiatry and you can maybe tell us

348
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:27,440
about that but like the scene that i

349
00:11:30,389 --> 00:11:28,959
brought up or the slide that i brought

350
00:11:33,269 --> 00:11:30,399
up is you

351
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:33,279
sitting in a consultation with a

352
00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:35,360
near-death experiencer and i get the

353
00:11:38,310 --> 00:11:36,800
feeling from reading the book that

354
00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:38,320
you've had many of these and people have

355
00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:39,519
sought you out and

356
00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:42,160
sought you out as a people helper tell

357
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:44,959
us about that part of this whole

358
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:47,680
experience for you during your career

359
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:49,440
well i was interested in pursuing

360
00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:50,000
research

361
00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:52,800
in new death experiences um but nobody

362
00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:55,120
pays you to do that for a living

363
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:57,760
so i made my living as a psychiatrist

364
00:12:01,829 --> 00:12:00,000
treating psychiatric patients

365
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:01,839
teaching medical students and residents

366
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:03,120
about psychiatry

367
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:05,519
and doing research on the side and i

368
00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:07,200
loved that i liked

369
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:10,240
being a doctor being a psychiatrist and

370
00:12:12,389 --> 00:12:11,760
that was how i made my living for the

371
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:12,399
next uh

372
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:15,120
40 50 years i was just going to say you

373
00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:15,680
know i

374
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:18,240
kind of cut the bio short because i hate

375
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:19,040
when people go

376
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:21,440
on and on about credentials at the

377
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:23,440
beginning but i did want to read a

378
00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:24,000
little

379
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:26,880
clip from the book and i don't know if

380
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:28,160
this will

381
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:29,680
embarrass you you're a pretty humble guy

382
00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:31,440
you don't quite teach your horn too much

383
00:12:34,069 --> 00:12:32,000
but

384
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:34,079
in the book you do you just kind of lay

385
00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:35,120
out

386
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:37,920
who you are and i'm reading from after

387
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:38,880
here

388
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:40,399
i've been fortunate enough to serve on

389
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:42,800
the full-time medical school faculty at

390
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:44,320
the university of michigan where i ran

391
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:46,639
the emergency psychiatry service

392
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:48,399
at the university of connecticut where i

393
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:50,720
was clinical chief of psychiatry

394
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:52,399
and at the university of virginia where

395
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:54,320
i held the endowed chester carlson

396
00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:55,519
professorship

397
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:58,000
in psychiatry in neurobehavioral

398
00:13:01,590 --> 00:12:59,519
sciences

399
00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:01,600
i received research grants from

400
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:03,440
government agencies pharmaceutical

401
00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:04,160
companies

402
00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:05,920
and from private and non-private

403
00:13:09,509 --> 00:13:07,519
research foundations

404
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:09,519
i have been privileged to have addressed

405
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:11,600
a symposium on consciousness

406
00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:14,720
at the united nations and have earned

407
00:13:19,350 --> 00:13:17,200
awards for my medical research and have

408
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:19,360
been elected as the distinguished

409
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:22,160
life fellow of the american psychiatric

410
00:13:25,990 --> 00:13:24,000
association

411
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:26,000
okay so that's just all true that ain't

412
00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:27,040
bragging if it's true

413
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:29,920
but here's what you say but through all

414
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:32,160
these in the back of my mind

415
00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:34,880
were the nagging questions about the

416
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,440
mind

417
00:13:40,230 --> 00:13:38,399
and body relationship that holly raised

418
00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:40,240
with her knowledge of that stain

419
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,480
on my tie which relates back to the

420
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:44,800
first story you told us

421
00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:47,440
my personal need as a skeptic to follow

422
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:48,639
the evidence

423
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:51,279
kept me from closing my eyes to events

424
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:52,320
like that

425
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:55,279
events that seemed impossible and led me

426
00:13:59,670 --> 00:13:56,240
on a journey

427
00:14:02,470 --> 00:13:59,680
to study them scientifically

428
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:02,480
very beautifully written do you do you

429
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:04,240
have anything to add i mean

430
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:06,959
this is a very distinguished career and

431
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:07,839
i i know

432
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:11,040
from the book that at times you felt

433
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:12,639
that that career

434
00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:15,199
might be threatened by your your

435
00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:16,320
passionate drive

436
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:19,120
as a scientist to investigate this what

437
00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:20,480
was that like

438
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:23,920
well it was um but as you said before

439
00:14:28,389 --> 00:14:26,800
uh there's been a remarkable shift in

440
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:28,399
public attitudes towards new death

441
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:31,519
experiences in the last half century

442
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:34,399
when i started out in this field no

443
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:35,680
doctors ever heard of it

444
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:38,240
and most who did hear of it were quite

445
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:39,440
disbelieving

446
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:41,600
when we first started talking in medical

447
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:42,560
conferences

448
00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:44,320
in the early 1980s about near-death

449
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:46,720
experiences we would get a lot of people

450
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:48,240
coming to our presentations but there

451
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:48,800
would be

452
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:51,440
a very uh a silence in the in the

453
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:52,079
audience

454
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,399
when we finished and nobody quite knew

455
00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:56,000
what to make of these things

456
00:15:00,870 --> 00:14:59,519
and now when we talk about these ndes in

457
00:15:02,389 --> 00:15:00,880
medical conferences

458
00:15:03,670 --> 00:15:02,399
it's rare that a doctor doesn't get up

459
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:03,680
from the audience and say let me tell

460
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:05,519
you about my experience

461
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,880
so i think you know one of the things i

462
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:08,639
like about working with doctors is that

463
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:10,800
they're a very practical group

464
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:12,560
if it's something that will help their

465
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:14,800
patients they want to know about it

466
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:16,800
and clearly a lot of their patients are

467
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:18,480
having near-death experiences

468
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:19,920
and it affects their attitudes and

469
00:15:24,470 --> 00:15:22,480
beliefs and values and their health care

470
00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:24,480
so doctors want to know about it they

471
00:15:26,949 --> 00:15:26,399
still have i think a healthy skepticism

472
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,959
about

473
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:28,800
what causes ndes what their ultimate

474
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:30,880
meaning is but there's no doubt in their

475
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:32,399
minds that they do exist

476
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:35,360
and they're fairly common you know what

477
00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:36,000
about

478
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:39,040
the personal aspect of this because

479
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:42,000
i did mention that there's some great

480
00:15:45,509 --> 00:15:43,600
interviews that you've done one of my

481
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:45,519
favorites is with my friend

482
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:47,519
rick archer from boot at the gas pump

483
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:48,800
one of the things i really appreciate

484
00:15:51,910 --> 00:15:49,440
about your

485
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:51,920
interview with him is you guys kind of

486
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:53,360
separated out

487
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:55,920
the spiritually transformative

488
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:57,040
experience

489
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:00,560
is super important

490
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:02,959
on one level that's really where the

491
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,079
beef is because

492
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:06,079
people come through transformed and

493
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:07,680
their lives show it

494
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:09,920
but because you're a scientist and

495
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:12,240
because you're a professional

496
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:14,560
uh academic and medical professional

497
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:15,839
you've had to pursue this

498
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:17,440
kind of scientifically from a

499
00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:19,360
physiological standpoint from a research

500
00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:21,440
publishing standpoint

501
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:23,279
like you just mentioned at conferences

502
00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:25,440
so it's great to to kind of bifurcate

503
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:27,040
those in a way because there's two

504
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:29,519
interesting discussions i wonder

505
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:30,480
personally

506
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,160
as uh as a man as a son

507
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:36,240
of your parents who were you know your

508
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,600
dad was chemistry guy

509
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:40,000
very kind of nuts and bolts but then as

510
00:16:43,430 --> 00:16:41,120
a father yourself

511
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:43,440
as a husband i mean what has this been

512
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:44,480
like for you

513
00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:47,040
because i know anyone who studies this

514
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:47,920
for as long as

515
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:50,880
you have there's a personal spiritual

516
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:52,320
transformation just for hearing these

517
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:54,000
accounts right

518
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:55,680
there is there is you know i was raised

519
00:16:59,509 --> 00:16:57,360
as a scientist and i

520
00:17:01,910 --> 00:16:59,519
firmly believe that science is a great

521
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:01,920
way to learn about the world around us

522
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:03,519
and so i still turn to that as my

523
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:06,160
primary way of knowing what's going on

524
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:08,480
so i tend to apply scientific methods to

525
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:10,240
everything in my life including my

526
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:11,679
research

527
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:14,720
i have pursued all the physiological

528
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:16,640
hypotheses that have been proposed

529
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:20,000
to explain nds and rather than accepting

530
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:22,559
or denying them i've sought out data

531
00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:24,799
to test them and all the ones i've been

532
00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:26,559
able to test so far have

533
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:29,600
been contradicted by the data

534
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:30,960
now there are some that we have not been

535
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:33,120
able to test yet so they still remain

536
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:35,760
plausible but untested and a part of me

537
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:37,200
thinks that we may someday

538
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:39,360
find a physiological answer for these

539
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:41,200
things but i'm getting

540
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:43,039
less and less convinced we ever will as

541
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,640
the time goes on and we don't find

542
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:46,720
anything that's coming close to it

543
00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:50,320
so i also i'm very aware that

544
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:52,160
the major effect of this experience on

545
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:53,520
people who have them

546
00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:55,760
is not what it tells them about the

547
00:17:58,950 --> 00:17:56,799
afterlife

548
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:58,960
but what it tells them about this life

549
00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:00,000
and how to lead a more

550
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:03,360
meaningful and fulfilling life and it is

551
00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:05,840
spiritual transformation it involves

552
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:07,600
their relationship to other people to

553
00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:09,280
something greater than themselves

554
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:12,240
to the universe as a whole to the divine

555
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:14,320
and that affects everything they do

556
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:16,080
and when you talk to people about this

557
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:18,559
again and again over decades

558
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:20,160
you can't help but be affected by it

559
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:22,960
yourself and think more and more about

560
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:25,280
what is the meaning of life why are we

561
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:28,960
here how should we be spending our time

562
00:18:33,909 --> 00:18:31,679
you wrote a book with dr jan holden from

563
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:33,919
the university of north texas colleague

564
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:35,840
i i know you have a lot of a lot of

565
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:37,840
respect for i did too

566
00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:40,960
together you both wrote the handbook of

567
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:43,039
near-death experiences which is really

568
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:43,520
really an

569
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:46,480
important book on a number of levels but

570
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:47,360
mainly because

571
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:51,120
it's almost like a reference guide for

572
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:53,360
healthcare professionals who encounter

573
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:55,360
this you know nurses who

574
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:58,000
have a patient come back and are dying

575
00:19:00,710 --> 00:19:00,000
to tell somebody but i saw this i saw

576
00:19:07,510 --> 00:19:00,720
that

577
00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:07,520
because of their own you know lack of

578
00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:08,880
knowledge would

579
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,720
be dismissive towards that person or

580
00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:12,640
make that person feel less than

581
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:14,880
than welcomed so that was a really

582
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:15,840
important book

583
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:18,160
and you've done a revision of it that is

584
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:19,840
super important

585
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,400
but the pushback

586
00:19:29,029 --> 00:19:27,200
against near-death experience science

587
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:29,039
has been

588
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:30,960
really hard to explain like the

589
00:19:34,390 --> 00:19:32,880
skeptical episode i brought up here i

590
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:34,400
did an interview with jan holland

591
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:37,120
and we were really i asked her to

592
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:38,480
respond to

593
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:41,679
an interview i did with carolyn lott who

594
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:45,520
uh published a peer-reviewed paper

595
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:47,760
there's nothing paranormal about

596
00:19:51,669 --> 00:19:49,200
near-death experiences

597
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:51,679
how neuroscience can explain seeing

598
00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:52,960
bright lights

599
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,840
meeting the dead or being convinced you

600
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:57,200
are one of them

601
00:20:00,870 --> 00:20:00,000
and i love jan's quote she's actually

602
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:00,880
quoting you

603
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:03,440
in the interview that i did with her but

604
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:04,400
i'm saying

605
00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,440
how can such schlocky just

606
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:09,840
unprofessional research which it is i

607
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:10,880
don't care i

608
00:20:16,870 --> 00:20:14,320
interviewed miss watt and confronted her

609
00:20:20,149 --> 00:20:16,880
with it directly her misquotes

610
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,159
her complete uh rigging

611
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:22,559
of any kind of normal interpretation of

612
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:23,200
the data

613
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:26,559
you would have failed this paper uh dr

614
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:28,159
holden would have failed this paper

615
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:29,840
would have suggested somebody

616
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:31,919
seek a different profession if they were

617
00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:33,440
if you're in one of your classes but

618
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:35,440
here's the quote

619
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:38,080
i said you know what what do you make

620
00:20:41,110 --> 00:20:38,960
jan of this

621
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:41,120
there's nothing paranormal about

622
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:43,200
near-death experiences

623
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:46,559
and she says well she's from texas

624
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,559
she's she's you know she lives in texas

625
00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:50,400
she's nice you know she's not gonna

626
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:52,320
i don't know the material that's out

627
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:54,240
there actually supports a different

628
00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:55,280
conclusion

629
00:21:01,350 --> 00:20:58,320
to quote my colleague bruce grayson

630
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:01,360
if you ignore everything paranormal

631
00:21:06,549 --> 00:21:04,880
about ndes then it's easy to conclude

632
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:06,559
there's nothing paranormal

633
00:21:13,909 --> 00:21:10,640
about them so maybe you want to speak

634
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:13,919
for a minute to this kind of

635
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:17,360
over the top debunking

636
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:20,240
that nde science has faced over the

637
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:22,480
years

638
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:25,360
i'm somewhat sympathetic with these um

639
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:26,880
debunkers because

640
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:28,960
i started out there and i understand

641
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:30,960
where they're coming from

642
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:34,080
and it really requires you to

643
00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:36,159
give up some of your cherished beliefs

644
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:38,000
about how the world is constructed if

645
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:39,360
you really want to

646
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:40,880
take these things seriously and

647
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:42,400
understand them

648
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:45,679
and that is very unnerving to do i was

649
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:47,039
tremendously unnerved when i first

650
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:50,720
got into this field but i was confident

651
00:21:53,590 --> 00:21:51,679
that they were really

652
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:53,600
a real phenomenon and it was important

653
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:54,880
to understand them

654
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:56,640
if my cherished beliefs about the world

655
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:58,159
were wrong

656
00:22:01,430 --> 00:22:00,400
i wanted to know that i didn't want to

657
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:01,440
continue with my

658
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:03,520
wrong beliefs so i thought it was

659
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:04,720
worthwhile

660
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:07,919
risking that to uh to pursue them but i

661
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:09,360
can understand how people would not be

662
00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:10,559
willing to do that

663
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:13,039
i i get that on one level and i want to

664
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:14,640
talk about that from your personal level

665
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,440
of being sure

666
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:17,520
a skeptic and being comfortable that the

667
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:19,360
life of your life is meaningless as you

668
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:20,640
were told and all that i want to talk

669
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,960
about

670
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,720
in just a minute but i want to throw

671
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:24,159
this on the table because i wonder if

672
00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:27,039
you're willing to at least consider

673
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:30,080
the possibility that this is

674
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,520
a manufactured dissent this isn't

675
00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:35,360
genuine in the way that we think about

676
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:37,600
it i have a hard hit and i've done this

677
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:39,520
for years so many of these people

678
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,000
and pursued them for peer-reviewed you

679
00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:44,320
know it always has to be peer-reviewed

680
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:47,600
posing as science kind of stuff

681
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:51,039
i just fail to believe that uh

682
00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:54,159
dr watt is sitting there doing any kind

683
00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:54,480
of

684
00:23:01,510 --> 00:22:58,480
real research that would compel her to

685
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:01,520
respond to your paper so her response

686
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:02,880
going through all the trouble

687
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,799
and then having the right connections to

688
00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:06,480
immediately zipping it through a

689
00:23:10,149 --> 00:23:08,080
peer-review process

690
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:10,159
it doesn't seem genuine and it doesn't

691
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:12,000
seem genuine when you stack it up with

692
00:23:14,789 --> 00:23:13,919
all the other papers that as soon as a

693
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,799
new

694
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:16,640
significant near-death experience

695
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:18,480
research uh

696
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:21,840
uh effort comes out whether it's uh

697
00:23:24,950 --> 00:23:23,919
sam parney or whether it's pinball or

698
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:24,960
whether it's you

699
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:26,960
or whether it's evan alexander you know

700
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:28,799
it's like

701
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:32,000
it is organized it is immediate and the

702
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:32,799
response

703
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:36,080
is it seems to me that it's

704
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:38,480
hitting a different tone it's hitting a

705
00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:40,000
tone of

706
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:43,360
i'm not sure that we

707
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:45,760
want to go and leave that out there

708
00:23:49,909 --> 00:23:47,600
without a response

709
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:49,919
are you at all open to that or are you

710
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:51,360
totally convinced that

711
00:23:55,110 --> 00:23:53,840
it is all just kind of organic gosh

712
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:55,120
dolly g

713
00:23:58,870 --> 00:23:57,520
those guys are so wrong let me go tell

714
00:24:02,310 --> 00:23:58,880
them

715
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:02,320
well you know doctors and scientists

716
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:04,960
are just like everybody else they have

717
00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:07,840
the same motives the same biases

718
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:11,120
there certainly are i'm sure some people

719
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:13,679
who are just playing an academic game

720
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:14,799
and trying to give

721
00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:16,720
their supervisors what they think they

722
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:19,120
want to hear and trying to give the

723
00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:20,960
journal publishers editors what they

724
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:22,400
think they want to hear

725
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:24,240
but that's a small number if they do

726
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:26,159
exist i think the vast majority of these

727
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:27,600
quote debunkers

728
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:28,880
are people who really believe what

729
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:30,640
they're saying who are so

730
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,799
locked into their prejudice that they

731
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:34,080
can't accept

732
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:36,080
the reality of anything else in that

733
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:38,960
sense that type of

734
00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:41,760
unshape unshakable belief in materialism

735
00:24:44,470 --> 00:24:43,360
is very much like any fundamentalist

736
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:44,480
religion

737
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:46,640
you cannot accept any evidence that

738
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:47,520
contradicts

739
00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:49,919
your beliefs so you don't you honestly

740
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:51,279
don't believe it

741
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:52,799
so i think most of these people are

742
00:24:55,909 --> 00:24:54,880
acting out of honesty with their own

743
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:55,919
their own beliefs they're just not

744
00:24:59,830 --> 00:24:57,120
willing to

745
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:59,840
uh accept i'm down with the most people

746
00:25:02,310 --> 00:25:00,720
part of that

747
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:02,320
and i don't want to pursue this too much

748
00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:03,679
further but i'm going to pursue it a

749
00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:05,039
tiny bit further because

750
00:25:11,029 --> 00:25:08,559
sure what really uh

751
00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:11,039
it's only i started out really first of

752
00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:12,240
all i started out interested in

753
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:13,600
parapsychology because

754
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,640
i was i was a business guy

755
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:18,080
and then i got done with that and i said

756
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:19,679
i want to know the big picture questions

757
00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:21,120
who are we why are we here

758
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:22,799
and i thought these guys you know dean

759
00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:24,720
rayden and rupert sheldrick and those

760
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:25,520
guys were doing

761
00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:28,880
interesting real science well

762
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:31,440
when i found the opposition to that was

763
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:33,120
just

764
00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:36,320
despicable as uh sheldor comes out and

765
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:37,200
says

766
00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:39,440
deceptive that they're being deceptive

767
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:41,120
sheldrick's a cambridge biologist and

768
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:42,240
he's a pretty

769
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:44,000
buttoned up british guy he i don't think

770
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:45,840
he throws around a deceptive

771
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:48,960
scientist title very easily it started

772
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:49,520
me

773
00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:54,000
that

774
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:55,440
this science may have drawn the

775
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:58,480
attention of folks who are interested

776
00:26:02,630 --> 00:26:01,919
in controlling messages controlling

777
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,640
culture

778
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:04,320
and anyone who isn't comfortable with

779
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:06,159
that just has to wake up to

780
00:26:09,909 --> 00:26:07,520
you know the example i always use is

781
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:09,919
gloria steinem go gloria stein was in

782
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:10,720
the cia

783
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:17,279
the women's movement

784
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:18,799
it's not like she started the women's

785
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:20,480
movement and then was recruited by the

786
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:21,279
cia

787
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:24,640
women's

788
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:27,600
on other projects and then got recruited

789
00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:28,880
to join the women's movement

790
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:31,120
this is our history it is undeniable

791
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,640
they are out of her mouth

792
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:34,799
out of the words of the people who

793
00:26:37,909 --> 00:26:35,760
control her

794
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:37,919
i'm not suggesting that there's a

795
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:39,279
parallel here

796
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:42,080
with near-death experience research but

797
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:42,880
i'm not

798
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:47,120
totally convinced that there isn't

799
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:50,640
a trail of breadcrumbs that are left

800
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:54,000
for people to pursue a certain line of

801
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:57,120
attack against this research that

802
00:27:01,110 --> 00:26:59,679
that shouldn't there shouldn't be that

803
00:27:02,549 --> 00:27:01,120
kind of dissent

804
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:02,559
like you just mentioned you know the

805
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:04,080
kind of research that you and your

806
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:07,120
colleagues have done has been

807
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:10,000
like what we would expect to see oh is

808
00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:12,080
this the last gasp of a dying brain

809
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,720
well let's check oxygen levels let's

810
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:16,480
check if there's other chemicals in the

811
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:17,039
system

812
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:19,840
let's check all these things on all this

813
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:20,640
kind of

814
00:27:25,190 --> 00:27:23,360
debunking research there's none of that

815
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:25,200
there is virtually no research

816
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:27,600
most of the time they've never even

817
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:30,080
talked to anyone who's experienced

818
00:27:33,510 --> 00:27:32,640
this near-death encounter kind of thing

819
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:33,520
so

820
00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:37,279
i'll let it go after this but

821
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:39,840
maybe i'll let it go now i won't require

822
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:42,720
that you comment on that but that is

823
00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:45,760
my inevitable conclusion to it

824
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:47,919
well alex let me just say that there

825
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:48,799
definitely are

826
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:51,440
people who are diehard materialists who

827
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:51,919
will not

828
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:54,320
look at all the evidence and insist they

829
00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:55,520
know the truth

830
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:58,000
on the other hand i know die-hard people

831
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:59,360
with a religious or spiritual

832
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:00,159
perspective

833
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:02,000
who will not look at any contradictory

834
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:03,279
evidence also

835
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,799
so that's that's just human nature that

836
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:06,960
some people are so locked into their own

837
00:28:09,269 --> 00:28:07,760
viewpoint

838
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:09,279
they are not willing to look at the

839
00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:11,120
evidence that contradicts them

840
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:12,640
fortunately i think the vast majority of

841
00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:14,799
new death researchers are not like that

842
00:28:19,909 --> 00:28:18,799
they're honest open skeptical scientists

843
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:19,919
you know the other thing that you

844
00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:21,760
mentioned a minute ago that i wanted to

845
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:22,480
circle back

846
00:28:27,350 --> 00:28:26,799
on is do you think that people in the

847
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:27,360
medical

848
00:28:30,789 --> 00:28:30,159
field kind of have a little bit of a leg

849
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:30,799
up

850
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:33,840
kind of from a philosophical standpoint

851
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:37,600
or from a patient doctor relationship

852
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:39,279
you mentioned that and i think that's

853
00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:41,360
definitely true do you want to speak to

854
00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:42,240
that at all

855
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:43,760
yeah i think it is true i think that's

856
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:45,600
one of the reasons i like working with

857
00:28:48,549 --> 00:28:46,399
doctors

858
00:28:49,830 --> 00:28:48,559
you know a lot of scientists especially

859
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:49,840
basic scientists

860
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:52,080
uh come at it from a theoretical

861
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:53,600
perspective

862
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:55,360
and of course they want to understand

863
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:56,799
how things work

864
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:58,000
and if they can't understand it they

865
00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:00,960
don't accept it doctors and even more so

866
00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:01,760
nurses

867
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:04,080
are very practical people they want to

868
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:05,360
do what works

869
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:06,720
and if they can't understand how it

870
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:07,760
works if they don't understand the

871
00:29:10,310 --> 00:29:08,799
mechanism

872
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,320
okay that's too bad but we know it works

873
00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:12,480
so we'll use it and that makes them

874
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:13,760
different from

875
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:15,919
scientists who say i need to understand

876
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:18,000
it before i'm going to use it

877
00:29:21,110 --> 00:29:19,440
so i think for that reason doctors and

878
00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:21,120
nurses are very practical their major

879
00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:22,240
concern is

880
00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:24,720
will this help or hurt my patient not do

881
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:27,760
we understand how it works

882
00:29:35,269 --> 00:29:31,520
great so in the book after

883
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:35,279
you not only talk about that kind of

884
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:36,960
transformation that we're talking about

885
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:39,520
and what it means for people's lives and

886
00:29:43,510 --> 00:29:41,919
some of the problems and opportunities

887
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,520
you know because it isn't always

888
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:45,360
perfect as you point out in the book

889
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,520
there is some transition a lot of times

890
00:29:49,350 --> 00:29:49,039
that people have to do when they return

891
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:49,360
and

892
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:52,880
their life aren't changed but that's

893
00:29:56,870 --> 00:29:55,440
really kind of a minor topic

894
00:29:58,630 --> 00:29:56,880
because the question i really wanted to

895
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:58,640
ask you is could you

896
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:01,679
recall what were maybe

897
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:05,360
one or two of the most

898
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:07,679
significant kind of breakthrough moments

899
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,360
for you scientifically

900
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:11,600
where you maybe went into some research

901
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:13,039
and i always like hearing

902
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:15,520
when scientists say i went into the

903
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:16,080
research

904
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:17,360
and i really didn't know how it was

905
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:19,840
going to come out and i was afraid that

906
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:21,840
you know maybe it was going to come out

907
00:30:25,909 --> 00:30:23,360
and i was going to have to go

908
00:30:27,909 --> 00:30:25,919
nope i guess i was wrong you know did

909
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:27,919
you ever have any of those moments

910
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:29,840
where you were kind of holding your

911
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:31,840
breath to see how it would come out

912
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:33,440
sure sure i think that's that's the

913
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,880
essence of science

914
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:36,480
you know the great lewis thomas wrote

915
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:38,159
that great science if it's really

916
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:38,960
science

917
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:40,320
is something that you don't know how

918
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:42,640
it's going to turn out um

919
00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:46,159
you know one of the one of the most uh

920
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:49,200
impactful events for me in this was when

921
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:50,960
i developed this near-death experience

922
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:53,919
scale to standardize research into ndes

923
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:55,279
so we know we'd all be talking about the

924
00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:55,760
same

925
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:58,720
phenomenon because originally all the

926
00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:00,240
near-death researchers were rocking

927
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:02,320
isolation with no one else at their own

928
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:03,360
university

929
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:04,720
and i wasn't sure we were all talking

930
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:06,399
about the same thing so we developed a

931
00:31:08,710 --> 00:31:07,200
scale

932
00:31:10,389 --> 00:31:08,720
through our elaborate statistical

933
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:10,399
process to come up with

934
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:11,840
a way of defining what our native

935
00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:14,320
experiences for research purposes

936
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:16,880
and that was in use for maybe a decade

937
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:19,600
or so when i was approached by two

938
00:31:23,430 --> 00:31:21,840
um skeptical statisticians who i did not

939
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,440
know

940
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:25,760
and they had they had been using this

941
00:31:28,389 --> 00:31:26,720
unusual

942
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:28,399
and very sophisticated test called the

943
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,080
rash analysis

944
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:32,480
to analyze whether a scale was really

945
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:34,799
worthwhile whether it was really valid

946
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:37,360
and they wanted to apply the scale to my

947
00:31:40,070 --> 00:31:38,080
data

948
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:40,080
to see whether my scale was really

949
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:41,440
worthwhile

950
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,720
and i thought about this i didn't

951
00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:44,960
understand the test it was way beyond my

952
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:47,200
my level of understanding of statistics

953
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:48,480
and there are people i didn't know

954
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:50,880
i didn't know how honest or how

955
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:52,559
open-minded they were

956
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:54,799
and they wanted they wanted access to my

957
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:56,960
raw data to test the scale

958
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,159
and i thought about it and thought well

959
00:32:02,950 --> 00:32:00,480
do i want to risk having all this

960
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:02,960
credibility destroyed by this on the

961
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:03,600
other hand

962
00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:06,240
if the scale doesn't work i want to know

963
00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:06,640
that

964
00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:08,240
i don't want to keep using it promoting

965
00:32:11,110 --> 00:32:09,919
it if it isn't really a valid can we

966
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:11,120
pause one second there

967
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:12,640
i want to make sure everyone understands

968
00:32:15,909 --> 00:32:14,159
what we're talking about so this is

969
00:32:18,789 --> 00:32:15,919
known as the grayson scale

970
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:18,799
after your name and what are some of the

971
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:19,440
factors

972
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:22,080
that you found in these massive number

973
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:23,519
of accounts that you collected

974
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:25,840
and then statistically analyzed and

975
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:26,559
organized

976
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:29,200
into some repeatable patterns that come

977
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:31,039
up on the scale just so people know like

978
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:31,360
what

979
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:34,559
items on the grayson scale that these

980
00:32:38,149 --> 00:32:36,399
guys then further analyzed

981
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:38,159
right i never called it the grayson

982
00:32:43,269 --> 00:32:41,120
scale i called it the nde scale

983
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:43,279
and other people have just called it the

984
00:32:47,269 --> 00:32:45,039
great grayson skull as a shortcut

985
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:47,279
but i never called it that and i'm not

986
00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:48,399
particularly happy with that being

987
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:49,760
called but anyway

988
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:53,039
the scale includes 16 items includes

989
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:55,440
changes in your thought processes like

990
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:56,880
thoughts becoming faster than ever

991
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:57,279
before

992
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,399
review

993
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,640
it includes emotional changes like

994
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:04,000
feeling of overwhelming peace and

995
00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:05,600
well-being

996
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:08,080
a sense of being one with the universe a

997
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:09,919
sense of being

998
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:12,000
encapsulated by unconditional love from

999
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:13,519
a being of light

1000
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:15,519
it includes so-called paranormal things

1001
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:16,880
like a sense of

1002
00:33:21,029 --> 00:33:19,440
leaving the physical body and seeing

1003
00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:21,039
things beyond the range of your senses

1004
00:33:24,789 --> 00:33:23,120
so-called extra sensory perception

1005
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:24,799
it includes free cognitive visions of

1006
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:27,760
the future and it includes

1007
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:30,159
so-called otherworldly things being in

1008
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:31,039
some other

1009
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:33,200
non-physical realm or dimension

1010
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:34,080
encountering

1011
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,240
what seemed to be entities not of this

1012
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:38,399
world deities or deceased

1013
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:40,799
spirits and finally coming to a point of

1014
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:42,559
no return beyond which you can't

1015
00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:45,600
go and still return to life

1016
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:48,320
so there are 16 of these items that were

1017
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:50,240
most commonly reported by near-death

1018
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:51,760
experiences and which most easily

1019
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:52,559
differentiated

1020
00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:55,120
ndes from other responses to a brush

1021
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:57,120
with death

1022
00:34:01,509 --> 00:33:59,840
so that's what the scale was and

1023
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,519
eventually i decided i needed to know if

1024
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:03,120
it really worked or not

1025
00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:06,559
so i gave these two scholars jim horan

1026
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:09,599
and renzo lang access to all my raw data

1027
00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:11,679
i thought it was around 600 or so near

1028
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:14,079
death experiences responses on the scale

1029
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:16,720
and they proceeded to analyze it and

1030
00:34:19,909 --> 00:34:17,280
months

1031
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:19,919
went by before i heard from them and i

1032
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:21,440
was nervous i didn't know what to expect

1033
00:34:25,030 --> 00:34:22,399
from this

1034
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:25,040
but i had to go with it that's you know

1035
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:26,320
if you're going to be skeptical

1036
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:27,599
you have to be skeptical about your own

1037
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:30,000
ideas as well as everyone else's so

1038
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,919
i gave them all the data and waited and

1039
00:34:35,109 --> 00:34:33,679
waited and waited

1040
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,119
and after a few months they came back

1041
00:34:41,109 --> 00:34:37,440
with the answer that the scale

1042
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:41,119
was valid it produced

1043
00:34:47,030 --> 00:34:45,839
a reasonable measure of one experience

1044
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:47,040
there were some things that they

1045
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:48,960
corrected with my scale for example

1046
00:34:54,149 --> 00:34:52,639
in my scale each item had three possible

1047
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:54,159
responses

1048
00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:55,839
and they said their analysis showed you

1049
00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:57,520
didn't need three that two was fine

1050
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:59,119
if they were just yes or no that would

1051
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,960
give you as much information

1052
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,160
but they concluded that the scale

1053
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:04,480
measured one uh coherent

1054
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:07,680
experience that was the same across uh

1055
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,280
gender race religiosity length of time

1056
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:13,520
since the experience and so forth

1057
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:15,599
and that really validated my experience

1058
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:16,960
my scale

1059
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:20,240
and this scale dr grayson has been

1060
00:35:25,349 --> 00:35:23,440
kind of the foundational piece in

1061
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:25,359
just a lot of research that's been

1062
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:27,599
published around the world by

1063
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:30,800
labs outside of university of virginia

1064
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:33,520
that's maybe take it to the next step

1065
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:34,880
and explain to people

1066
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:37,599
how someone has how some folks have used

1067
00:35:40,630 --> 00:35:38,560
the scale

1068
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:40,640
to kind of move this research forward

1069
00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:41,839
yeah it's it's been

1070
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:44,320
translated into about 20 languages and

1071
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:46,079
it's been used in hundreds of studies

1072
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:49,040
all around the world and it's it's kind

1073
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:50,160
of the main way now

1074
00:35:54,069 --> 00:35:52,800
of identifying and quantifying the depth

1075
00:35:56,310 --> 00:35:54,079
of a near-death experience

1076
00:35:57,349 --> 00:35:56,320
it's very helpful in research to make

1077
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:57,359
sure you have

1078
00:36:00,390 --> 00:35:59,280
a coherent sample of one consistent

1079
00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:00,400
phenomenon

1080
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:01,760
it's not helpful in dealing with an

1081
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:03,440
individual experiencer for example if

1082
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:05,359
someone says to me

1083
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,680
i was pronounced dead i had this

1084
00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:09,119
incredible experience

1085
00:36:12,870 --> 00:36:11,680
and i am forever transformed by it and

1086
00:36:13,829 --> 00:36:12,880
you give them the skill and they score

1087
00:36:15,190 --> 00:36:13,839
too low

1088
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,200
to be qualified as a near-death

1089
00:36:18,550 --> 00:36:17,280
experience you can't tell them they

1090
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:18,560
didn't have a near-death experience

1091
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:20,640
they clearly had a transformable

1092
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:22,480
transformative spiritual event

1093
00:36:26,069 --> 00:36:24,240
when they were in close to death or

1094
00:36:27,190 --> 00:36:26,079
pronounced dead that's on your death

1095
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:27,200
experience

1096
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,119
so it doesn't help you in defining an

1097
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:30,960
nde for an individual person

1098
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:33,680
but it's helpful in looking at a large

1099
00:36:39,990 --> 00:36:36,640
sample of research subjects

1100
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:40,000
so it's been used by that over the last

1101
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:42,640
40 years uh in all different types of

1102
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:43,200
study

1103
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,440
now there are some questions now about

1104
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:47,520
whether it needs to be updated

1105
00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:49,280
because we've learned a lot about ndes

1106
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:50,720
since the scale was first developed in

1107
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:52,240
the early 1980s

1108
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:54,000
and i'm working with some people now to

1109
00:36:55,990 --> 00:36:55,280
look at whether they should change it

1110
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:56,000
and if so

1111
00:37:02,150 --> 00:36:59,040
how interesting any

1112
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:02,160
study from the grayson scale i've got to

1113
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:04,079
use that term i'm sorry

1114
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:07,200
that that it wasn't in at the uva

1115
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:10,400
but you thought was particularly

1116
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:14,160
interesting or novel way of applying it

1117
00:37:18,230 --> 00:37:16,480
uh well there are a number of scales all

1118
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:18,240
over the country um

1119
00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:19,760
you know there's a group in university

1120
00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:21,440
of asia in belgium

1121
00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:23,760
in steve laurie's lab and he's got some

1122
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:25,599
great uh young researchers there who are

1123
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:27,040
using it um

1124
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:29,680
charlotte martial vanessa uh charlene

1125
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:30,320
verville

1126
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:32,880
and elaine kassel who are doing very

1127
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:34,240
innovative work with

1128
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:36,800
samples of new death experiencers using

1129
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,320
my scout to define them

1130
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:39,839
this group in new zealand brought headed

1131
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:41,920
by natasha tassell matamua who are using

1132
00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:43,119
the scale

1133
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:46,000
that's been used by teams in in italy um

1134
00:37:49,589 --> 00:37:46,640
of course in

1135
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:49,599
several in the uk and throughout the

1136
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:50,880
united states as well

1137
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,560
one example that i found super

1138
00:37:58,150 --> 00:37:54,640
interesting is this idea that

1139
00:38:00,550 --> 00:37:58,160
you looked at you are a psychiatrist

1140
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:00,560
uh he you've looked at her i'm not sure

1141
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:02,160
if other people looked at

1142
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:05,520
mental health and in these and i think

1143
00:38:09,589 --> 00:38:06,400
again this is where

1144
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:09,599
the scale can kind of help right

1145
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:11,680
right right well you know being a

1146
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:13,760
psychiatrist i have access to

1147
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:15,440
large numbers of people with mental

1148
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:17,200
illness um

1149
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,920
so i looked at that the association

1150
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:21,359
between mental illness and near-death

1151
00:38:25,190 --> 00:38:22,880
experiences

1152
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:25,200
and first i looked at a large sample of

1153
00:38:28,550 --> 00:38:26,960
near-death experiencers

1154
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:28,560
and gave them a screening questionnaire

1155
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:30,960
for symptoms of mental illness

1156
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:32,560
and i found that their rate of mental

1157
00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:34,000
illness was the same

1158
00:38:39,990 --> 00:38:37,200
as the general population so

1159
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:40,000
people with ndes have the same amount of

1160
00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:40,800
mental illness

1161
00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:43,920
as everybody else does then i looked at

1162
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:44,960
people who were

1163
00:38:49,510 --> 00:38:48,000
seeking psychiatric help and i looked at

1164
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:49,520
everyone who came to the psychiatric

1165
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:50,800
clinic over the course of a year some

1166
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:52,320
800 people

1167
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:53,760
and asked them if they had been ever

1168
00:38:58,710 --> 00:38:55,680
been close to death and if so

1169
00:39:01,829 --> 00:38:58,720
i had them fill out my nde scale

1170
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:01,839
and when i found that was almost 20

1171
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,760
of them had a near-death experience

1172
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:05,280
which is about the same as the general

1173
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:06,880
population of people who come close to

1174
00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:07,839
death

1175
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:10,160
so again mental illness does not seem to

1176
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:12,160
have any particular relation with

1177
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:15,119
near-death experiences we also looked at

1178
00:39:19,510 --> 00:39:17,040
specific types of mental illness

1179
00:39:20,230 --> 00:39:19,520
that might be theoretically associated

1180
00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:20,240
with

1181
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:22,720
um near-death experiences post-traumatic

1182
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:23,920
stress disorder

1183
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:26,240
um dissociation and so forth and we

1184
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:27,040
found that

1185
00:39:30,230 --> 00:39:29,440
they were not the same thing that those

1186
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:30,240
those

1187
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:33,520
uh psychiatric diagnoses um did not

1188
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:34,960
apply to people with new death

1189
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,320
experiences

1190
00:39:39,430 --> 00:39:38,000
let me switch gears for a minute and ask

1191
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,440
you a kind of

1192
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:41,760
really really big picture question you

1193
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:42,960
know

1194
00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:47,680
max planck said you can't get behind

1195
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:50,640
consciousness right which kind of takes

1196
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:53,119
us in a whole other direction about

1197
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:56,320
what we're even doing you know so we're

1198
00:40:00,310 --> 00:39:58,320
post materialistic science all those

1199
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:00,320
dummies back there

1200
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:02,880
but are we considering the possibility

1201
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:04,400
that

1202
00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:06,079
maybe our understanding of these

1203
00:40:10,870 --> 00:40:08,079
extended consciousness realms

1204
00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:10,880
we're dragging along some of our kind of

1205
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:12,960
i always say backdoor materialism kind

1206
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:13,280
of

1207
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:15,760
look at how things are organized and how

1208
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:17,440
things work i mean

1209
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:19,440
if there's nothing behind consciousness

1210
00:40:24,069 --> 00:40:21,680
are we in consciousness

1211
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:24,079
all the time both when we're not in a

1212
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:25,280
near-death experience

1213
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:26,560
and when we're in a near-death

1214
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:28,960
experience and when we're in a

1215
00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:31,440
in theogen experience and all the rest

1216
00:40:34,069 --> 00:40:32,240
of it i'm sure

1217
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:34,079
you've thought deeply about this what

1218
00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:35,280
are your thoughts about

1219
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:37,599
the larger questions of consciousness i

1220
00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:39,119
think you have to look at those things

1221
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:40,319
you have to keep going with them

1222
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:42,560
with an open mind you know i grew up

1223
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:44,800
with the idea that most people have that

1224
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:47,040
the mind is what the brain does that all

1225
00:40:50,630 --> 00:40:48,240
our thoughts and feelings and

1226
00:40:51,829 --> 00:40:50,640
perceptions are created by the brain

1227
00:40:54,309 --> 00:40:51,839
that certainly seems that way in

1228
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:54,319
everyday life when you get intoxicated

1229
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:56,000
uh you don't think very clearly when you

1230
00:40:59,190 --> 00:40:57,680
get here on the head or have a stroke

1231
00:41:01,990 --> 00:40:59,200
that affects your thinking so clearly

1232
00:41:02,870 --> 00:41:02,000
the brain is instrumental in our in our

1233
00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:02,880
thoughts

1234
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:04,960
um and it's only in extreme

1235
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:06,319
circumstances like near-death

1236
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:07,680
experiences

1237
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:10,720
when the brain seems to be offline or

1238
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:13,680
severely limited and consciousness seems

1239
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:15,119
to be expanding

1240
00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:16,960
people think clearer than ever before

1241
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:18,400
they have perceptions more vivid than

1242
00:41:21,750 --> 00:41:19,359
ever before

1243
00:41:23,589 --> 00:41:21,760
when the brain seems to be incapable of

1244
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:23,599
forming a thought

1245
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:25,520
and we see this in other substances as

1246
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:27,680
well there's a phenomenon called

1247
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,240
terminal lucidity in people with end

1248
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:32,480
stage dementia like alzheimer's disease

1249
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:34,240
who have not recognized family for

1250
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:35,920
decades and have not been able to

1251
00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:36,960
communicate

1252
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:39,040
suddenly became totally lucid in the

1253
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:40,720
hours before they die

1254
00:41:44,069 --> 00:41:42,400
and they recognize family and carry on

1255
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:44,079
coherent conversations

1256
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:46,480
and they collapse and there is no

1257
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:48,400
medical explanation for this

1258
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,760
someone with advanced alzheimer's

1259
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:51,520
disease does not regenerate the brain

1260
00:41:55,430 --> 00:41:52,560
and become

1261
00:41:57,270 --> 00:41:55,440
you know incapable of thinking again the

1262
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:57,280
brain cannot be involved in this

1263
00:42:03,030 --> 00:42:00,800
and yet the consciousness does

1264
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:03,040
so clearly it seems to me that

1265
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:04,720
consciousness can exist

1266
00:42:09,990 --> 00:42:08,480
without the help of the brain

1267
00:42:11,829 --> 00:42:10,000
that raises the question of whether can

1268
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:11,839
continue to do so after the brain dies

1269
00:42:15,190 --> 00:42:13,040
after our bodies die

1270
00:42:17,430 --> 00:42:15,200
is conscious is still there i think you

1271
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:17,440
answer that over and over again but i i

1272
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:18,640
gotta say you know

1273
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:21,520
you're kind of staying on the scientific

1274
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:22,160
uh

1275
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,440
medical track which is great but i was

1276
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:27,359
surprised to hear

1277
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:30,160
you talk about god and uh you know

1278
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:31,760
you're really stepping out there

1279
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:34,000
and saying hey that's where the data

1280
00:42:36,790 --> 00:42:35,920
leads and you know i first heard that

1281
00:42:39,190 --> 00:42:36,800
from

1282
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:39,200
jeff long a colleague and i know you

1283
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:40,720
have a lot of respect for jeff and i do

1284
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:41,200
too

1285
00:42:46,790 --> 00:42:44,960
radiation oncologist in louisiana

1286
00:42:47,990 --> 00:42:46,800
but he went out and did some survey work

1287
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:48,000
the most extensive

1288
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:49,839
that's out there and kind of came to the

1289
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:52,160
same conclusion like look we can

1290
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:54,000
you may not like the answer to this but

1291
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:57,359
this is the most significantly

1292
00:43:02,309 --> 00:43:01,440
uh reported experience from the near

1293
00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:02,319
death experience

1294
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:04,400
is that experience with that greater

1295
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:05,920
that god that

1296
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:07,760
all-encompassing love and light more

1297
00:43:13,030 --> 00:43:09,440
than a tunnel more than the light

1298
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:13,040
it's that feeling experience of god

1299
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:14,960
and then i've heard you say and in the

1300
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:16,560
book say

1301
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:19,599
you're not going to be a

1302
00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:22,160
tight-buttoned scientist it's dodged

1303
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:23,839
that question you jump right in there

1304
00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:25,440
and say well that's how it looks to you

1305
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:26,240
too

1306
00:43:29,829 --> 00:43:29,119
yeah well you know the talking about the

1307
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:29,839
other world

1308
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:32,160
or about a deity is something that's

1309
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:34,240
very hard to study scientifically you

1310
00:43:38,069 --> 00:43:34,960
can't

1311
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,079
test god um he doesn't usually cooperate

1312
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:40,560
with our double-blind trials

1313
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:42,240
but there are things about what they say

1314
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:44,079
about the other life that can be

1315
00:43:47,829 --> 00:43:46,960
tested scientifically but whether

1316
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:47,839
there's a god

1317
00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:50,079
is not one of them now i look at the

1318
00:43:53,349 --> 00:43:52,160
data from what the end of years say and

1319
00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:53,359
how they respond

1320
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:56,960
and i see remarkable consistency in

1321
00:44:02,710 --> 00:44:00,000
the phenomena they experience but not

1322
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:02,720
necessarily in how they describe it

1323
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:04,960
most near-death experiences say that

1324
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:06,640
there are no words to describe what

1325
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:08,480
happened to me i just can't put it into

1326
00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:09,359
english

1327
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:10,960
and then we say great tell me all about

1328
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:13,280
that so we're kind of forcing them to

1329
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:15,440
distort it by putting into words

1330
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:17,200
so they use whatever metaphors come

1331
00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:18,560
readily to them and those are often

1332
00:44:22,309 --> 00:44:19,280
religious

1333
00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:22,319
or cultural metaphors so most people

1334
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:23,440
will talk about

1335
00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:25,440
encountering this warm loving being of

1336
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:27,119
light it's not like a static light like

1337
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:28,640
a light bulb or the sun

1338
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:31,040
it's a being it's an entity with

1339
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:32,000
intelligence and

1340
00:44:36,230 --> 00:44:34,640
and eradiating this incredible

1341
00:44:38,550 --> 00:44:36,240
unconditional love and acceptance and

1342
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:38,560
protection

1343
00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:40,960
and when people describe this to you

1344
00:44:43,990 --> 00:44:42,319
they will maybe use

1345
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:44,000
whatever metaphors come to them if you

1346
00:44:48,550 --> 00:44:46,319
happen to be a christian you may say

1347
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:48,560
that was god or that was christ if

1348
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:50,400
you're a hindu you may say that was a

1349
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:52,000
yam dude or something else

1350
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:54,480
um people describe it by what their

1351
00:44:57,670 --> 00:44:55,920
culture tells them to describe it

1352
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:57,680
but even those who use the word god will

1353
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:59,280
often say to me

1354
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,560
i'm using the word god so you know what

1355
00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:02,400
i'm talking about but it wasn't like the

1356
00:45:05,349 --> 00:45:03,680
god i was taught about in church it was

1357
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:05,359
much bigger than that

1358
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:07,440
you know evan alexander says the word

1359
00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:08,960
god is much too puny for what i

1360
00:45:11,829 --> 00:45:10,319
experienced

1361
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,839
and i think that many of them say like

1362
00:45:15,349 --> 00:45:13,680
anita morgani says

1363
00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:15,359
you can call it anything you want you

1364
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:18,079
can call it god allah krishna buddha

1365
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:20,960
whatever it's all that is and there is

1366
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:23,040
no word to encompass it

1367
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:26,800
and that's the type of way they describe

1368
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:29,440
this entity that has the properties of

1369
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:30,960
what we call a god but

1370
00:45:34,630 --> 00:45:34,000
much more than that i get you on all

1371
00:45:40,470 --> 00:45:34,640
that

1372
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:40,480
talk about it we talk about it in a way

1373
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:41,119
to kind of

1374
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:44,160
appea appease an atheistic scientific

1375
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:44,960
community

1376
00:45:48,870 --> 00:45:46,400
that really doesn't want to hear about

1377
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:48,880
god because you're you're spinning it

1378
00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:50,640
one you're not spinning it but you're

1379
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:52,400
talking about it one way which is

1380
00:45:55,589 --> 00:45:54,560
important to understand that we can't

1381
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:55,599
attach

1382
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:58,960
a a religious tie to it and

1383
00:46:01,990 --> 00:46:00,720
manny i've talked to christians who

1384
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:02,000
tried to co-op

1385
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:04,560
you know hey if you don't see jesus you

1386
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:05,200
didn't have

1387
00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:08,000
i got my own scale my scale is in unity

1388
00:46:12,069 --> 00:46:08,720
jesus

1389
00:46:14,630 --> 00:46:12,079
you didn't have a real nde but

1390
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:14,640
the the the thing that i just don't want

1391
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,319
to bury and i'm not saying that you are

1392
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:18,079
but i want to emphasize is

1393
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:19,440
this is the most profound part of their

1394
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:21,680
experience so they might say i might not

1395
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:22,640
have the language for

1396
00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:25,280
this and that but they say listen up

1397
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:27,359
this is what it's about

1398
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:30,800
and the atheist materialist stuff

1399
00:46:36,790 --> 00:46:34,560
is so far freaking wrong that it's just

1400
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:36,800
completely outside the box

1401
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:40,720
they're not doing this scale analysis of

1402
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:41,440
could it be

1403
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:44,560
knowing

1404
00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:48,079
that there is this all loving source

1405
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:49,680
that this stuff comes through and i i

1406
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:51,280
hear you saying that in the book i just

1407
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:52,480
want to make sure

1408
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:54,480
yeah you know we're not kind of

1409
00:46:58,150 --> 00:46:56,160
soft-pedaling it to

1410
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:58,160
because i feel like we do this all the

1411
00:47:00,950 --> 00:47:00,400
time we are playing on the other guy's

1412
00:47:03,190 --> 00:47:00,960
court

1413
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:03,200
i mean whether we like it or not

1414
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:05,839
scientific materialism

1415
00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:08,240
they own the court and they decide who

1416
00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:09,520
plays and they decide

1417
00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:10,960
what the rules are and you've had a

1418
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:13,200
fantastic career but there's a lot of

1419
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:14,720
people that would love to

1420
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:17,040
pursue this research but they can't i've

1421
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:18,480
talked to them they're like this will

1422
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:18,880
not

1423
00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:21,280
get me i won't even be able to keep my

1424
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:23,440
job let alone get to the next

1425
00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:26,720
rung on the ladder so i don't know i

1426
00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:27,359
just

1427
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:29,200
i think that has to be thrown out there

1428
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:30,480
as well do you have any

1429
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:32,319
thoughts you want to add yeah i sure do

1430
00:47:35,670 --> 00:47:34,400
i sure do i am no longer a scientific

1431
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:35,680
materialist

1432
00:47:42,390 --> 00:47:39,119
but i'm still a scientist and that means

1433
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:42,400
everything i know comes through my

1434
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:43,760
experiences

1435
00:47:47,750 --> 00:47:45,520
and i know as a scientist that my

1436
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:47,760
experiences are subject to my

1437
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:50,800
interpretation of them i'm never totally

1438
00:47:54,150 --> 00:47:51,599
convinced

1439
00:47:56,309 --> 00:47:54,160
that i'm seeing things properly and that

1440
00:47:58,630 --> 00:47:56,319
i'm understanding them properly

1441
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,640
i am fairly convinced that the sun's

1442
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:00,400
going to come up tomorrow

1443
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:02,800
from the evidence i've had in the past

1444
00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:05,440
i'm not 100 convinced

1445
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:06,800
i approach the world in that way that

1446
00:48:10,230 --> 00:48:08,480
i'm always a little skeptical about what

1447
00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:10,240
i think i know

1448
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:11,839
so i am fairly convinced from what

1449
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:13,440
people have told me from what thousands

1450
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:14,880
of people have told me

1451
00:48:17,990 --> 00:48:16,400
near-death experiences that from their

1452
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:18,000
own experience not from their religious

1453
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:18,640
teachings

1454
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:22,079
but from their experience there is this

1455
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:25,680
all-knowing all-loving being or entity

1456
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:28,160
that is guiding us and that is waiting

1457
00:48:31,829 --> 00:48:28,880
to force

1458
00:48:32,710 --> 00:48:31,839
when we pass and that we are in fact

1459
00:48:34,630 --> 00:48:32,720
part of that

1460
00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,640
it's like a wave in the ocean you're a

1461
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:36,319
distinct thing you're a wave

1462
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:37,440
but you're part of the same thing the

1463
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:39,359
rest of the ocean is

1464
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:41,599
um so i'm fairly convinced that that's

1465
00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:44,000
the truth that's the way things are

1466
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:45,599
but i'm not totally convinced because i

1467
00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:47,920
know that i can be misinterpreting

1468
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:49,200
mishearing

1469
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:51,760
and i never never i'm never totally

1470
00:48:57,430 --> 00:48:54,160
convinced that i got the right story

1471
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,440
i i i love it i love it and i've been

1472
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:59,280
holding back and every time you say

1473
00:49:02,710 --> 00:49:00,800
skeptic i kind of want to

1474
00:49:04,230 --> 00:49:02,720
jump in there because it's obviously

1475
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:04,240
part of the title of this show and i

1476
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:05,920
think the word has been

1477
00:49:13,829 --> 00:49:11,829
and i even think that sometimes when we

1478
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:13,839
talk this is like a point i always make

1479
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:14,480
is

1480
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:20,400
it's not if you want to be you just have

1481
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:21,520
to do good science

1482
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:23,599
that's why we have the scientific method

1483
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:24,640
because someone can say

1484
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:26,640
i'm skeptical and someone say i'm not

1485
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:29,520
skeptical i'm biased i'm not biased

1486
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:31,760
show me the data you know it really

1487
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:33,280
that's how it's supposed to work it's

1488
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:34,960
supposed to all just come out in the

1489
00:49:38,069 --> 00:49:35,680
wash

1490
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:38,079
if we do good work it's not a matter of

1491
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:40,240
oh you're not skeptical enough

1492
00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:42,319
i mean do you have any thoughts you want

1493
00:49:46,309 --> 00:49:44,800
to add to that yeah i do alex

1494
00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:46,319
we are all biased there's no getting

1495
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:49,119
around that everyone has biases whether

1496
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:50,160
they're personal

1497
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:53,040
cultural religious political we're all

1498
00:49:55,510 --> 00:49:54,640
biased we all have ways of that

1499
00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:55,520
determine

1500
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:57,760
whether color color our thinking not

1501
00:50:02,630 --> 00:49:59,599
determine it but color it

1502
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:02,640
and i know that i do too and um

1503
00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:04,880
you have to constantly be trying to

1504
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:06,640
understand and maybe trying to fight

1505
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,680
against it

1506
00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:09,680
and see what's the truth there beyond my

1507
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:11,599
biases and that requires i think

1508
00:50:15,270 --> 00:50:12,960
skepticism

1509
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:15,280
about the evidence and about your own

1510
00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:16,720
ideas

1511
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,640
unless you entertain that doubt that

1512
00:50:21,190 --> 00:50:20,240
skepticism

1513
00:50:22,549 --> 00:50:21,200
you're never sure you're getting the

1514
00:50:24,829 --> 00:50:22,559
right story or are you getting your own

1515
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:24,839
biases

1516
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:28,880
great you know dr grayson we talked

1517
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:31,520
well we didn't really talk at in depth

1518
00:50:35,109 --> 00:50:32,559
about

1519
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:35,119
some of the more hard science medical

1520
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:36,640
science that's been applied to

1521
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:38,240
near-death experiences

1522
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:40,240
mainly because i've talked about it on

1523
00:50:43,589 --> 00:50:42,000
so many other shows and you've done some

1524
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:43,599
great interviews and people need to read

1525
00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:44,240
the book

1526
00:50:47,750 --> 00:50:45,760
because that stuff is in there and it's

1527
00:50:49,990 --> 00:50:47,760
kind of laid out step by step you know

1528
00:50:53,829 --> 00:50:50,000
whatever you think your

1529
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:53,839
pet hypothesis is on why near-death

1530
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:54,800
experiences

1531
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:57,440
aren't everything you're saying get the

1532
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:57,839
book

1533
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:59,839
get after and i think those will be put

1534
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:01,440
to rest

1535
00:51:09,030 --> 00:51:05,920
one thing that does i i guess nag at me

1536
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:09,040
is the relationship the whole

1537
00:51:13,349 --> 00:51:10,640
resuscitation thing

1538
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:13,359
is fascinating right and another

1539
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:14,640
colleague of yours

1540
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:17,680
excellent researcher dr samparnia

1541
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:20,880
has really advanced this jan holden

1542
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:22,000
again has

1543
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:25,520
dr penny sartori dr jan holden dr penny

1544
00:51:28,309 --> 00:51:27,520
sartoria i always love and reference

1545
00:51:30,670 --> 00:51:28,319
their research

1546
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:30,680
on interviewing people after

1547
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:32,800
resuscitation and recalling it

1548
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:34,559
yeah they go to the control group people

1549
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:36,240
didn't have an indian they're saying

1550
00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:38,160
what are you talking about i was dead i

1551
00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:39,839
don't recall anything

1552
00:51:42,790 --> 00:51:41,359
and the other was just good no here's

1553
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:42,800
how it was they wheeled me and they did

1554
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:43,520
this that

1555
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:46,480
yeah fantastic simple anyone can get

1556
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:47,440
that

1557
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:50,640
dr pernia kind of more uh

1558
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:53,359
rigorous in-hospital thing but here's

1559
00:51:59,510 --> 00:51:54,480
the thing

1560
00:52:03,990 --> 00:51:59,520
it kind of implies again back to this

1561
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:04,000
almost mechanistic relationship between

1562
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:06,960
the brain and this technology that's

1563
00:52:11,910 --> 00:52:08,800
being applied to our body

1564
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:11,920
and then it's connecting to this

1565
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:14,720
god thing and this spiritual thing in a

1566
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:15,680
way that

1567
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:18,079
doesn't satisfy either group doesn't

1568
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:20,800
satisfy the materialist leaning kind of

1569
00:52:24,950 --> 00:52:21,440
folks

1570
00:52:27,270 --> 00:52:24,960
and doesn't satisfy the purely spiritual

1571
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:27,280
kind of people how do you wrestle with

1572
00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:28,000
that

1573
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:31,680
well near death experiences share a lot

1574
00:52:34,470 --> 00:52:32,720
in common with

1575
00:52:36,470 --> 00:52:34,480
other spiritually transformative events

1576
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:36,480
that occur in other situations

1577
00:52:40,549 --> 00:52:38,640
you can have this through spiritual

1578
00:52:42,150 --> 00:52:40,559
traditions like meditation

1579
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:42,160
you can have it through sensory

1580
00:52:45,109 --> 00:52:43,839
deprivation

1581
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,119
you can have it through lots of

1582
00:52:49,510 --> 00:52:47,520
different ways

1583
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:49,520
but the near-death experience coming

1584
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:51,440
close to death seems to be now

1585
00:52:54,549 --> 00:52:53,119
one of the most reliable ways of getting

1586
00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:54,559
it

1587
00:52:58,470 --> 00:52:57,280
but why is that approach to death a way

1588
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:58,480
of reaching this

1589
00:53:02,790 --> 00:53:00,960
spiritual transformative event you know

1590
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:02,800
most people who have one through

1591
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:05,040
uh meditation or some other spiritual

1592
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:07,440
tradition are trying to get it

1593
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:08,720
they've been prepared for it they know

1594
00:53:11,430 --> 00:53:10,400
what to expect they have a guru or

1595
00:53:14,230 --> 00:53:11,440
someone who's gonna help them

1596
00:53:15,829 --> 00:53:14,240
reintegrate it people who have ndes

1597
00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:15,839
aren't looking for it

1598
00:53:18,870 --> 00:53:18,160
they don't want it it sort of comes upon

1599
00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:18,880
them

1600
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:23,839
appears that in the near-death situation

1601
00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:26,480
something about dying or about

1602
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:28,800
approaching death

1603
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,520
triggers or allows this to happen

1604
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:36,160
and i'm i'm fairly convinced now that

1605
00:53:40,150 --> 00:53:37,119
something about us

1606
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:40,160
that's non-physical can leave the body

1607
00:53:43,750 --> 00:53:43,200
in these extreme circumstances but it

1608
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:43,760
may be

1609
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,440
that something that happens in the brain

1610
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:49,040
whether it's electrical or chemical or

1611
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:51,599
both allows that to happen now you

1612
00:53:56,069 --> 00:53:52,720
certainly can have out-of-body

1613
00:53:58,309 --> 00:53:56,079
experiences in other circumstances

1614
00:53:59,829 --> 00:53:58,319
something about the brain decaying

1615
00:54:03,349 --> 00:53:59,839
deteriorating

1616
00:54:05,190 --> 00:54:03,359
makes that easy to happen and permits it

1617
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:05,200
so i think it's worth looking at the

1618
00:54:09,270 --> 00:54:06,400
physiological

1619
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:09,280
correlates of indian death experience to

1620
00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:10,000
see

1621
00:54:14,309 --> 00:54:12,640
what's going on in the brain to permit

1622
00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:14,319
the non-physical part of us

1623
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:16,480
to separate from the physical part of us

1624
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:17,920
to parts that are normally

1625
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:21,040
working together in perfect harmony yeah

1626
00:54:24,790 --> 00:54:22,559
it's just kind of interesting because

1627
00:54:27,349 --> 00:54:24,800
now we're bringing the brain

1628
00:54:29,430 --> 00:54:27,359
back in you know we started by kind of

1629
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:29,440
setting it aside and saying wow

1630
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:31,839
it looks like the brain doesn't play the

1631
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:33,760
role that we thought it did

1632
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:35,920
the brain is shut down after cardiac

1633
00:54:39,349 --> 00:54:36,960
arrest which

1634
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:39,359
right i always mentioned people you know

1635
00:54:42,069 --> 00:54:41,440
dr grayson and his colleagues have

1636
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:42,079
focused

1637
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:45,119
on ndes that are occurring in a medical

1638
00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:46,160
situation

1639
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:48,559
not because that's their pet interest

1640
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:50,319
but because it's the closest they can

1641
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:51,520
get to kind of

1642
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:53,680
controlling the physiology and building

1643
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:55,599
on this database we have of

1644
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:58,319
what happens to the body so but anyways

1645
00:55:02,309 --> 00:55:00,160
we're saying okay the brain

1646
00:55:03,349 --> 00:55:02,319
set that aside this seems to be max

1647
00:55:04,549 --> 00:55:03,359
planck

1648
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:04,559
you know we can't get behind

1649
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:06,640
consciousness or something greater

1650
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:08,960
and now it's just kind of strange that

1651
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:10,880
we're bringing the brain back in say

1652
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:12,960
well it does seem like maybe the brain

1653
00:55:17,430 --> 00:55:15,119
is triggering these and as we get better

1654
00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:17,440
with resuscitation technology

1655
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:20,000
there seems to be this link that that is

1656
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:21,520
unexplainable from a spiritual

1657
00:55:25,510 --> 00:55:23,359
perspective when people are saying

1658
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:25,520
well i knew i was going to have the nde

1659
00:55:30,549 --> 00:55:27,440
or they told me this or that

1660
00:55:31,990 --> 00:55:30,559
you know life is planned uh this is part

1661
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:32,000
of the plan kind of

1662
00:55:37,510 --> 00:55:35,680
there's gaps in the story you know a

1663
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:37,520
couple of different ways

1664
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:38,880
let me turn your thinking about the

1665
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:40,400
brain and these experiences around a

1666
00:55:43,910 --> 00:55:41,280
little bit

1667
00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:43,920
um we're thinking about the brain

1668
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:44,880
triggering this

1669
00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:48,559
event let me propose that

1670
00:55:53,670 --> 00:55:51,680
under normal circumstances the brain

1671
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:53,680
sort of imprisons the non-physical part

1672
00:55:56,870 --> 00:55:54,799
of us so that it can't

1673
00:55:58,950 --> 00:55:56,880
lead you can't experience these other

1674
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,960
types of consciousness

1675
00:56:02,069 --> 00:56:00,880
and they have to get the brain out of

1676
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:02,079
the way

1677
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:05,119
to let this happen so not that the brain

1678
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:07,280
is triggering it but the brain is being

1679
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:11,280
taken away from whatever it does that

1680
00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:14,480
prohibits us from doing this it's like

1681
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:16,640
the brain has a filter in it

1682
00:56:20,630 --> 00:56:18,799
to stop this other consciousness from

1683
00:56:23,270 --> 00:56:20,640
coming to us and that makes sense

1684
00:56:24,549 --> 00:56:23,280
in terms of evolution all our senses

1685
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:24,559
evolve to help us survive in the

1686
00:56:27,990 --> 00:56:25,599
physical world

1687
00:56:29,109 --> 00:56:28,000
you don't hear every possible sound

1688
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:29,119
that's out there

1689
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:30,400
that would overwhelm you you wouldn't be

1690
00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:32,480
able to understand anything so your ears

1691
00:56:35,589 --> 00:56:33,280
filter out

1692
00:56:37,510 --> 00:56:35,599
those irrelevant sounds and just lets in

1693
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:37,520
the small frequencies that

1694
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:39,440
are relevant to your survival your eyes

1695
00:56:44,470 --> 00:56:41,520
don't see everything every wavelength

1696
00:56:45,510 --> 00:56:44,480
in the spectrum it just lets in those

1697
00:56:47,589 --> 00:56:45,520
few wavelengths

1698
00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:47,599
the small range that's relevant to our

1699
00:56:51,829 --> 00:56:49,760
survival and filters out the rest

1700
00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:51,839
so if thoughts are out there if our mind

1701
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:53,599
is out there somewhere

1702
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:55,040
it makes sense that your brain would

1703
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:57,200
have evolved to filter out

1704
00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:59,359
the irrelevant stuff like god like

1705
00:57:02,950 --> 00:57:00,640
deceased loved ones

1706
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:02,960
and just let in those thoughts and

1707
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:04,559
perceptions that relate to our physical

1708
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:06,000
survivals how to find food

1709
00:57:09,910 --> 00:57:08,079
mate a shelter you don't need to talk

1710
00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:09,920
about god to do those things

1711
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:11,760
so it makes sense that the brain evolved

1712
00:57:16,309 --> 00:57:14,480
to filter out that higher consciousness

1713
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:16,319
and only when the brain's filter is shut

1714
00:57:20,870 --> 00:57:18,319
down somehow

1715
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:20,880
does it allow you to experience those

1716
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:22,640
higher forms of consciousness

1717
00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:24,319
but don't we still have a little bit of

1718
00:57:29,190 --> 00:57:26,000
a wrinkle

1719
00:57:31,670 --> 00:57:29,200
in the story when we introduce

1720
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:31,680
this resuscitation technology what is

1721
00:57:34,789 --> 00:57:32,880
going on there with

1722
00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:34,799
technology the link between technology

1723
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:37,200
medical technology resuscitation

1724
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:40,319
and the spiritual do you have any any

1725
00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:41,520
thoughts

1726
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:42,960
well i think the spiritual the this

1727
00:57:47,030 --> 00:57:44,880
resuscitation stuff is just

1728
00:57:48,069 --> 00:57:47,040
one way of making it more possible and

1729
00:57:50,309 --> 00:57:48,079
more common

1730
00:57:52,230 --> 00:57:50,319
for us to come back from this death

1731
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:52,240
state and talk about these things

1732
00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:55,200
it used to be that people would die and

1733
00:57:57,910 --> 00:57:56,400
if you were lucky enough to hear them

1734
00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:57,920
talk as they were dying you may hear

1735
00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:59,599
about deathbed visions that are like

1736
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,440
ndes but usually they just died and

1737
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:03,359
never told anybody about it

1738
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:05,280
with resuscitation techniques we can

1739
00:58:08,069 --> 00:58:07,119
bring them back and then hear what they

1740
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:08,079
experienced

1741
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:10,160
you know we're struggling with how can

1742
00:58:13,589 --> 00:58:11,440
this mind that's

1743
00:58:14,950 --> 00:58:13,599
if it's not part of the brain how does

1744
00:58:16,870 --> 00:58:14,960
it relate to the brain

1745
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:16,880
we have no idea how that could happen

1746
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:18,160
and materialists say

1747
00:58:22,069 --> 00:58:20,079
well that means you can't have a mind

1748
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:22,079
separate from the brain we don't

1749
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:23,680
understand how that could work

1750
00:58:27,829 --> 00:58:26,000
but the dirty secret of neuroscience is

1751
00:58:30,230 --> 00:58:27,839
we can't explain consciousness

1752
00:58:31,430 --> 00:58:30,240
inside the brain either no one's ever

1753
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:31,440
come up with an idea about how

1754
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:33,119
an electrical or chemical process in the

1755
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:34,880
brain can create a thought

1756
00:58:38,309 --> 00:58:36,400
that's just as much mystery as

1757
00:58:40,789 --> 00:58:38,319
consciousness outside the brain

1758
00:58:41,589 --> 00:58:40,799
yeah so we're stuck both ways of looking

1759
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:41,599
at things

1760
00:58:46,230 --> 00:58:44,000
have huge holes in them that make us not

1761
00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:46,240
understand what's going on

1762
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:48,240
i think when you have that much trouble

1763
00:58:52,870 --> 00:58:50,559
understanding the basics of

1764
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:52,880
mind and consciousness and brain then

1765
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:54,640
we're not asking the right questions

1766
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,160
it doesn't seem to be an answer to the

1767
00:59:00,309 --> 00:58:58,559
questions we're asking

1768
00:59:01,750 --> 00:59:00,319
yeah well said i i like when people

1769
00:59:03,030 --> 00:59:01,760
always go the hard problem of

1770
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:03,040
consciousness

1771
00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:04,880
let's start with the easy problem of

1772
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:07,520
consciousness which we don't understand

1773
00:59:13,990 --> 00:59:11,119
at all right hey dr grayson what do you

1774
00:59:15,589 --> 00:59:14,000
see coming up in the future of

1775
00:59:18,069 --> 00:59:15,599
near-death experience

1776
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:18,079
research what are you most excited about

1777
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:19,440
what are you

1778
00:59:25,829 --> 00:59:24,240
looking forward to seeing come about

1779
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,839
well there are two answers to that one

1780
00:59:29,270 --> 00:59:27,359
is me personally and

1781
00:59:31,190 --> 00:59:29,280
the other is where the field is going

1782
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:31,200
and me personally i am still

1783
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,760
a psychiatrist a healer and that's what

1784
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,040
i'm interested in

1785
00:59:39,349 --> 00:59:37,440
and my colleague marietta pillavanova

1786
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:39,359
and i are now looking at people who

1787
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:41,040
have difficulties after a new death

1788
00:59:43,829 --> 00:59:42,960
experience and we feel like they need

1789
00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:43,839
help

1790
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,599
integrating that into their lives and

1791
00:59:48,710 --> 00:59:47,280
we're looking at what types of things

1792
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:48,720
make them come for help

1793
00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:50,160
what types of help they're seeking what

1794
00:59:53,990 --> 00:59:52,000
type of helpers they're seeking

1795
00:59:55,829 --> 00:59:54,000
and what they find helpful and not

1796
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,839
helpful and hopefully come up with some

1797
00:59:59,349 --> 00:59:57,359
virtual guidelines for how to help

1798
01:00:01,589 --> 00:59:59,359
people like this

1799
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:01,599
but i'm limited because of my interest

1800
01:00:06,230 --> 01:00:04,240
and background in what i can study

1801
01:00:08,069 --> 01:00:06,240
fortunately there's a new generation of

1802
01:00:09,589 --> 01:00:08,079
researchers coming up behind me

1803
01:00:12,069 --> 01:00:09,599
who have vastly different areas of

1804
01:00:13,510 --> 01:00:12,079
expertise who are interested in ndes

1805
01:00:15,829 --> 01:00:13,520
and they're bringing to the study of

1806
01:00:18,390 --> 01:00:15,839
ndes areas that

1807
01:00:19,190 --> 01:00:18,400
i couldn't uh hope to hope to understand

1808
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:19,200
whether it's

1809
01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:21,839
cross-cultural and sociological uh

1810
01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:23,040
evaluations or

1811
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:24,880
physiological electrochemical

1812
01:00:29,349 --> 01:00:27,359
evaluations and i think in the next

1813
01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:29,359
20 30 40 years we're going to see a lot

1814
01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:31,200
more about ndes that we can't even

1815
01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:33,040
imagine now

1816
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:35,280
well i'm sure it's incredibly gratifying

1817
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:36,559
to you

1818
01:00:43,109 --> 01:00:39,599
to see that research and know that you

1819
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:43,119
are directly responsible for

1820
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:45,599
spawning so much of it inspiring so much

1821
01:00:49,510 --> 01:00:46,319
of it and

1822
01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:49,520
uh and then being directly correctly a

1823
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,599
part of so much of it it's really

1824
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:54,000
an amazing body of work so this book

1825
01:01:00,390 --> 01:00:56,400
again folks check it out

1826
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:00,400
after a doctor explores what near-death

1827
01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:04,319
experiences reveal about life and beyond

1828
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:05,920
i kind of pushed him a little bit he

1829
01:01:09,190 --> 01:01:07,760
didn't reveal a lot of personal stuff

1830
01:01:11,910 --> 01:01:09,200
about his

1831
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:11,920
personal spiritual experience and that's

1832
01:01:16,390 --> 01:01:13,599
okay he doesn't have to

1833
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:16,400
it's been absolutely fantastic having

1834
01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:17,359
you on and uh

1835
01:01:20,549 --> 01:01:19,520
congratulations on a fantastic book dr

1836
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:20,559
congratulations

1837
01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:22,960
it's been fun talking to you thanks

1838
01:01:26,069 --> 01:01:24,960
again to dr bruce grayson for joining me

1839
01:01:29,109 --> 01:01:26,079
today on skeptico

1840
01:01:29,829 --> 01:01:29,119
the one question i cannot resist teeing

1841
01:01:33,670 --> 01:01:29,839
up from this

1842
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:33,680
interview is are the dishonest debunkers

1843
01:01:37,670 --> 01:01:34,559
that have stood

1844
01:01:38,230 --> 01:01:37,680
in the way of near-death experience

1845
01:01:39,670 --> 01:01:38,240
science

1846
01:01:41,910 --> 01:01:39,680
by following what could only be

1847
01:01:44,549 --> 01:01:41,920
characterized as dishonest practices

1848
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:44,559
you know i mean dishonestly spinning the

1849
01:01:47,589 --> 01:01:45,119
data

1850
01:01:49,349 --> 01:01:47,599
dishonestly publishing peer-reviewed

1851
01:01:53,589 --> 01:01:49,359
work that doesn't meet

1852
01:01:55,829 --> 01:01:53,599
their normal standards are they really

1853
01:01:57,750 --> 01:01:55,839
dishonest would we really call them

1854
01:02:00,950 --> 01:01:57,760
dishonest or are they just

1855
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:00,960
oh kind of stuck in their belief systems

1856
01:02:05,990 --> 01:02:03,760
and what about this idea that i keep

1857
01:02:09,029 --> 01:02:06,000
hammering on of social engineering

1858
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:09,039
i mean could there possibly be any

1859
01:02:14,789 --> 01:02:10,640
social engineering

1860
01:02:19,029 --> 01:02:14,799
element to near-death experience science

1861
01:02:22,150 --> 01:02:19,039
well i i guess i can't really resist

1862
01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:22,160
injecting my opinion into the tone of

1863
01:02:25,270 --> 01:02:23,760
that question

1864
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:25,280
but i would like to hear your thoughts

1865
01:02:28,230 --> 01:02:27,200
on it let me know jump on over to the

1866
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:28,240
skeptical forum

1867
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:30,880
or track me down any way you like i got

1868
01:02:34,870 --> 01:02:32,880
some really good shows coming up

1869
01:02:36,470 --> 01:02:34,880
stick with me for all of that until next